I conducted an exclusive interview with a pastor who works in the care and support of Muslim refugees in Brazil. For security reasons and to preserve his identity, he will be identified only by the initials RMB.

Below is a brief résumé highlighting his background and experience:

Education and Academic Experience

RMB holds degrees in Theology from two institutions. He has furthered his studies through various courses focused on the language, culture, geography, politics, and religion of Middle Eastern peoples.

International Experience

He has undertaken study visits and cultural immersion in four countries of the region: Egypt, Jordan, Israel, and Turkey.

Q1. Mr. RMB, how do you reconcile your support for Israel with your work welcoming Muslim refugees? Is it possible to love and respect Arabs and Muslims while defending the Jewish people?

RMB: I try to separate the issues. They are distinct needs, and both require our attention. Supporting Israel is important for several reasons. First, Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, providing stability to the region. Second, Israel seeks integration, racial equality, and coexistence with its Arab and Muslim neighbors; it is welcoming, principled, and values life. Third, Israel’s technology and innovations benefit the entire world. Fourth, Israel has faced constant attacks from fundamentalist groups, conflicts, hostilities, and media wars in recent decades, years, months, and weeks. Finally, Israel is going through moments of anguish and uncertainty.

At the same time, it is essential to welcome refugees, regardless of whether they are Muslim. Thousands are victims of undemocratic systems, ideologies, totalitarian regimes, wars, conflicts, and persecution. Many flee with only the clothes on their backs, without documents, losing family, homes, dignity, and hope. They lose everything. That is why we must offer care and support to those in refuge, regardless of ethnicity or religion. It is a matter of humanity. Yes, it is possible to love and respect Arabs and Muslims while defending the Jewish people. With knowledge, education, empathy, discernment, and balance, it is possible to reconcile both commitments.

Q2. In the coverage by major Brazilian newspapers, it often seems there is a dichotomy: either one stands with the Jews or with the Arabs. Do you believe this view is simplistic? How do you deal with that narrative?

RMB: Yes, to me it is a simplistic view, reducing complex issues to overly simple or vague explanations. Since the conflict between Jews and Arabs, or between Israel and Arab and Muslim countries, is very complex, I make sure to carefully analyze the facts and consult reliable sources before taking a position or expressing an opinion, whether on the Jewish side or the Arab side. When dealing with these two groups, it is essential to examine the facts with great care and depth and to stand on the side of truth and justice, so as not to make mistakes—especially because, in a war or conflict, the first victim is the truth. Simply taking the side of Jews or Arabs regardless of the circumstances can be dangerous, unjust, and a serious mistake.

Q3. In your view, what is the central goal of Islam? How do Muslims perceive the concept of an “Islamic kingdom”?

RMB: Islam is a monotheistic religion based on Five Pillars: faith, prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage. Its central goal is to lead Muslims to complete submission to Allah and to His teachings revealed in the Qur’an, the Holy Book of Muslims. Beyond practicing the Five Pillars, Muslims are also obliged to spread Islam to all people, nations, and communities.

Islam is a proselytizing religion; therefore, its objective is to expand across continents, countries, and ethnic groups so that Islam prevails over all religions and is accepted as the absolute truth. The Qur’an states: “Fight them until there is no more discord, and religion belongs entirely to Allah… It is He who sent His messenger with guidance and the true religion, to make it prevail over all others, even if the idolaters dislike it.” (Qur’an – Surahs 8:39; 9:33). Since its emergence in the 7th century, Muslims have pursued this mission.

Today, Muslims represent 24% of the world’s population. Whether through conviction, imposition, or migration, Islam continues to expand globally, and its objective is being achieved.

As for the Islamic Kingdom or Caliphate, because Islam has many branches, there are different interpretations and views on this matter. Not all Muslims are willing to live under a fully Islamic regime—monarchical or theocratic—guided by the Qur’an and Sharia (Islamic law) in spiritual, social, political, economic, and military aspects. Generally, moderate Muslims are not inclined to do so. Recently, the world became aware of the Islamic State group, which became the most prominent example of those seeking to establish an Islamic Kingdom or Caliphate.

Q4. Within this ideal of an Islamic kingdom, is there room for the existence of Israel and the Jewish people?

RMB: Unfortunately, history shows that the Jewish experience under the caliphate is very complex. Muslims often consider the Land of Israel to be Islamic territory and Jerusalem as the third holiest city in Islam, with some wanting it as the capital of a possible future Palestinian state—even though the Qur’an itself says the land belongs to the Jews and does not mention Jerusalem. The Qur’an states: “Recall when Moses said to his people: O my people, remember Allah’s favors upon you, when He raised prophets among you, made you kings, and granted you what He had not granted to anyone among your contemporaries. O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you, and do not turn back, lest you become losers.” (Qur’an – Surah 5:20–21).

I believe there is no real space for a Jewish nation in the Middle East within a possible regional or global caliphate, nor for the Jewish people themselves. In theory, perhaps, but in practice it is different. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who died in 2004, once said in an interview: “It is not enough to have a state in the West Bank and another in Gaza; the best solution is to allow everyone—Christians, Jews, and Muslims—to live in Palestine, in an Islamic state.”

But since October 7, 2023, what we have heard from extremists, sympathizers, and antisemites is: “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” Former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad repeatedly said that Israel must be wiped off the map. There is also a Hadith from Bukhari and Muslim that says: “The Hour will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, and even if the Jews hide behind trees and stones, each tree and stone will cry out: O Muslims, O servants of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him—except for the Gharkad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews.” And the Qur’an says: “The Jews said: Allah’s hand is tied! May their hands be tied and cursed for what they said!… We have instilled enmity and hatred among them until the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle the fire of war, Allah extinguishes it… You will find that the worst enemies of the believers among mankind are the Jews and the idolaters.” (Qur’an – Surah 5:64, 82).

For these reasons, it is difficult to believe there is space for Israel or for the Jewish people within an Islamic kingdom.

Q5. And what about Christians: is it possible for them to fully coexist in predominantly Islamic societies?

RMB: If it depended on Christians, yes. But unfortunately, millions of them are persecuted every day in many Muslim-majority countries. I can cite at least 12 nations where there is extreme persecution against Christians: Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, Eritrea, Syria, Nigeria, Pakistan, Libya, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Mali (source: Open Doors).

Persecution includes the loss of freedom of worship, expression, and movement; attacks on homes, churches, businesses, and public Christian properties; loss of possessions and homes; physical and psychological assaults; abuse; kidnappings and imprisonment; and, in many cases, tragically, the loss of life itself. Because of such severe persecution, many are forced to flee their homes and even their countries. It is difficult to coexist with those who do not wish to live alongside people who profess another faith.

Q6. Some claim that in the Islamic world there is a structure sustaining both the religious and political system, while extremist groups seek to establish a caliphate. Do you see this dynamic?

RMB: The Islamic world is vast, with nearly 2 billion people, spread across countries in North Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. While there is indeed a structure that supports both religion and politics, differences exist among countries in how they govern and practice Islam. Since there are various branches of Islam—Sunni, Shia, Sufi, among others—there are diverse ways of practicing the faith. For example, Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia and its system of government differ from those in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Sudan, and Turkey, illustrating geographic and political diversity.

In my view, under a caliphate these differences would not exist, since the caliphate is recognized by Islamic scholars as the system of government meant to lead the entire religious community and unite Muslims. This is also something referenced in the sacred sources of the religion. Historically, four dynasties were recognized as the main caliphates, and for centuries they led Muslims and instituted religious law as a form of governance.

However, since 1924, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, no government has carried this title. Some fundamentalist groups have tried to revive the caliphate—such as the Islamic State, which attempted to do so from Iraq and Syria but ultimately failed, and Hamas, which seeks to establish an Islamic Palestinian state. These are just two examples, but they lack broad support within the Islamic community. Currently, no country or religious-political leadership is interested in founding a government of this kind.

Islamic sacred sources indicate that the caliphate will only reemerge with the arrival of the Mahdi, a man who, according to prophecy, will be an extremely just Muslim who will establish peace in the world and unity among Muslims. His government, however, will be a sign of the end times.

Q7. We know there are different currents within Islam, often in conflict with each other, leading to episodes of violence and bloodshed. However, some say these divisions fade when the subject is Israel and the Jews. Do you agree with this perception?

RMB: Yes, I agree, because when it comes to Israel and the Jews, Muslims often set aside their theological, ideological, and political differences and unite around a single objective. 

Recently, during the war between Israel and Hamas that began on October 7, 2023, we saw unity between Hamas and Islamic Jihad (both Sunni), and Hezbollah, the Houthis in Yemen, groups in Iraq and Syria, and Iran itself (all Shia). 

We also witnessed numerous demonstrations worldwide in support of the Palestinians and even of Hamas—even in Arab and Muslim countries where Palestinians are heavily discriminated against and where Hamas is not well regarded or welcomed. In other words, against Israel and the Jews, everything is permitted, and unfortunately the old proverb prevails: “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

© The Times of Israel (Blogs)