This post is Part 2 of a two-part series.

Author, Zen teacher, and Jungian psychotherapist Koshin Paley Ellison is a leader in the contemplative medicine movement. With his husband, Robert Chodo Campbell, he co-founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care in 2007. He is the author of Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion, among other books. Robert Chodo Campbell is a teacher in the Soto Zen tradition who specializes in helping those suffering with the complexities of death and dying, aging, and sobriety. He is on the faculty of the University of Arizona Medical School’s Center for Integrative Medicine.

Mark Matousek: Let’s talk about the shadows of spiritual family. Do you have folks projecting parental stuff onto you, for example?

Koshin Paley Ellison: Of course. That’s just what we do as human beings. That’s also why it’s very important to understand projection. We do it ourselves! I do it with my teacher. I’m very aware of it most of the time. There are so many examples of that in spiritual communities and business communities at all levels. Chodo and I really support each other in that, which is very helpful. For example, when one of us has just experienced it with a student. We can talk about what that’s like and how not to take it personally. How do we help guide that student?

MM: There are temptations to power in these relationships as well, I assume.

Robert Chodo Campbell: Absolutely. It’s seductive and not very interesting, though, because we can see in the

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