The following is a lightly edited transcript of the February 5 episode of the Daily Blast podcast. Listen to it here.

Greg Sargent: This is the Daily Blast from The New Republic, produced and presented by the DSR Network. I’m your host, Greg Sargent.

Donald Trump just showed weakness. He admitted in an interview that the events in Minnesota have persuaded him that ICE needs to use a softer touch, and he claimed he’s been working constructively with local officials there, something he almost never says. This comes as Trump’s plans to scale up vast new prison camps for migrants are running into stiff opposition, even in red areas. Meanwhile, a new poll shows that ICE’s standing with the public is cratering in all kinds of surprising ways. We think this has major implications for how Democrats should proceed now. And that’s why we’re talking to Brian Beutler, who’s been arguing on his Substack “Off Message” that Dems need to take charge of these big debates a lot more effectively. Brian, always good to see you, man.

Brian Beutler: It’s great to be back.

Sargent: So let’s start with this interesting exchange that Trump had with an NBC news reporter.

Reporter (voiceover): Mr. President, speaking of Minneapolis, what did you learn?

Donald Trump (voiceover): I learned that maybe we can use a little bit of a softer touch, but you still have to be tough. These are criminals. We’re dealing with really hard criminals. But look, I’ve called the people. I’ve called the governor, I’ve called the mayor, spoke to ’em, had great conversations with ’em, and then I see them ranting and raving out there literally as though a call wasn’t made.

Sargent: Note that Trump wants to be seen working constructively with officials like Minnesota Governor Tim Walz and Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey. Brian, you’ve written endlessly about how Trump routinely treats blue America as enemy territory. So I think this, plus Trump saying a “softer touch” is needed, strikes me as a tacit admission of political weakness. Your thoughts on that?

Beutler: Yeah, I think it’s indicative of a real, broader vibe shift against Trump and his administration and the things that his supporters are doing to the country, but maybe most particularly on this issue.

And maybe we can talk about some of those other issues a bit later on in the episode. But we should also caution listeners that just because Trump says he needs a softer touch on something, doesn’t mean that people on the ground in Minneapolis are experiencing a softer touch. What he needs is for his image to become associated with wanting a lighter touch.

He wants headlines that say “Trump Calls for Softer Touch” so that he can weaken and distract the resistance. Move media attention away from Minnesota and Minneapolis, yet continue to deploy oppressive force on the people who live there. So just because he said it doesn’t mean that people are out of the woods and we shouldn’t necessarily fall for the trap he’s trying to set, but he wouldn’t be saying it if things were going well.

Sargent: So there’s been a new turn in this whole battle right now. Trump and Stephen Miller are trying to scale up a bunch of vast new prison camps to hold an additional 80,000 migrants to speed up their deportation capacity. Yet this is running into trouble even in red areas.

Opposition is intense in one potential location, Hanover County, Virginia, which won for Trump by 26 points. A reddish part of New Jersey is opposed as well to one there. GOP Senator Roger Wicker just came out against the new detention center in Mississippi, of all places. Republican officials in other locales are opposing these camps. Brian, I think the prison camps are another good place for Dems to make a big stand—maybe nearly as fertile ground as the ICE raids are. What do you think?

Beutler: Oh, absolutely. And I think that they wouldn’t have been asking these questions of themselves in the first term. Like in the first Trump term, he had lost the popular vote. There was never this idea in the air that he was represented the true voice of all of America, right?

He was the true voice of “Trump’s America,” and we were trying to understand that. And so the people who had lost the election—even though they had won the most votes—they turned to protest and boycott to exert pressure on the administration. And it was commonplace for citizens and voters to lead, and then for Democrats to........

© New Republic