The spirit of Russian-Indonesian relations lies in understanding each other’s interests and in the absence of contradictions

For the readers of the New Eastern Outlook comes an interview with Alexei Drugov, a man personally involved in the establishment and development of cooperation between the USSR, and later Russia, with Indonesia. He is an expert translator with a PhD in political science and history and is a specialist who has brought up many generations of Russian orientalists.

– In this photograph, Sukarno is presenting an award to the Soviet cosmonaut A. Nikolayev. Yours truly is on the left. And in that one, I’m interpreting a conversation between Admiral G. Chernobay and the Indonesian leadership. Here are the next shots…

Professor Drugov carefully turns the pages of an album that preserves the living history of Soviet-Indonesian and Russian-Indonesian relations. And so, unhurriedly and methodically, we are flowing into our conversation about the friendship between nations and the path of the scholar-expert in oriental studies.

– Alexei Yuryevich, which areas of relations with Indonesia did you happen to contribute to?

– In the early 1960s, I worked in the international department of the Komsomol Central Committee, where I was responsible for supporting ties with foreign youth organisations. Later, I became a military translator. The Soviet Union played a key role in the fundamental modernisation of the Indonesian armed forces. Thanks to our effort, they transitioned to modern equipment – missile and jet technology: MiGs, and Tu-16KS. Afterwards, I spent twenty years working in the international department of the CPSU Central Committee. The department was actively involved in shaping foreign policy, and I contributed as a specialist in what pertained to Indonesia. Since 1991, I’ve been engaged in academic work and teaching – it’s been four decades now. I’m deeply grateful to the academician M. Kapitsa for inviting me to the Institute of Oriental Studies at the Russian Academy of Sciences.

– You have probably lost count of how many times you have been to Indonesia and how long you have spent there so far, haven’t you?

– Yes, I probably couldn’t count them now. My most recent trip was on the personal invitation of President Yudhoyono.

– How did you end up opting for Indonesia as your target sphere of interest?

– You know, strangely enough, I didn’t choose Indonesia.

– It was Indonesia to choose you, wasn’t it?

– The state chose the profession for me. When the Department of Oriental Studies was being set up at MGIMO, I was assigned to Indonesian studies.

– Which people influenced your professional development?

– My teachers, L. Mervart, G. Kesselbrenner, E. Gnevucheva. The army also awarded me with an incredible school of hard knocks, the very best one. Later, during my service, I joined the Party. Interpreting was also a school in itself; I interpreted in all sorts of places and situations – from submarines to the co-pilot’s seat in an aircraft, from morgues to meetings with heads of state. And I was also very fortunate with the colleagues I had at every stage of my life.

The sovereignty of a great power

– How would you assess Indonesia’s role in the world today?

– Its goal is to become a great power. It has the world’s fourth-largest population and the largest Muslim population. It is a country of at least six religions, hundreds of ethnic groups, two racial groups, and several civilisations – from primitive communal to modern high-tech. The principle of its foreign policy now is ‘bebas aktif,’ i.e., ‘independent and active’.

– What objectives does the Indonesian state currently set for its diplomats, politicians, and researchers?

– From a young age, Indonesians are instilled with the idea that their country is a great power. And that they must develop the economy, strengthen unity and sovereignty – political, economic and ideological.

– What can you say about its role in the Non-Aligned Movement?

– Although the Non-Aligned Movement is not very active now, Indonesia has always been, and remains, a significant participant and one of its leaders. Incidentally, these days it is paying more and more attention to Sukarno’s legacy. It was he who formulated the Bandung Principles.

Towards Russia – with respect and gratitude

– The continuity, the spirit, of Russian-Indonesian ties — where do they reside?

– The continuity and spirit of the ties are manifested in the absence of the slightest contradiction between Russia and Indonesia in terms of interests or self-perception. Now, thanks to Vladimir Putin and Sergey Lavrov, we are continuing to use and build upon the capital of relations that was laid down back in the Soviet era, from the 1950s onwards, starting with Sukarno’s famous speech at the Luzhniki Stadium in 1956. Our ties were never suspended or breached, not even during the anti-communist repression in Indonesia. The Suharto regime, contrary to American expectations, was nationalist. He did not gloat over the collapse of the USSR because he understood it was a tragedy for the whole world, including for the countries of the Non-Aligned Movement. And our line – to develop relations with Indonesia at all levels and to perceive and approach the country as an important figure, an independent, promising, and positive player on the international stage – was preserved, under every General Secretary and every President, despite all the upheavals in both our history and the history of Indonesia. Relations will continue to advance; there’s a clear trend in that direction.

– What would you indicate as the main principles of our relations?

– Mutual respect and recognition of each other’s historical and cultural role. It finds reflection in all areas of life, from politics to science. I have never encountered anti-Soviet or anti-Russian sentiment in Indonesia. Russia – as the successor to the USSR – is regarded with respect and gratitude. For Indonesia per se, the most important aspect is its sense of being a great power. We understand that – and when we do, everything is fine. There is also a sense of intellectual and political equality, of equal rights and shared interests between us. In this regard, there’s something that shouldn’t exist in normal interstate relations, and which we also don’t have… How would I put it in a more accurate way…

– Haughtiness. Pride should always be a component of your attitude towards your country. But you mustn’t treat partners looking down on them, as if their countries are somehow inferior. Indonesians, like Russians, understand this principle and value equal cooperation.

– Which areas of Russian-Indonesian cooperation do you find the most promising?

– Currently, the main slogan in Indonesia is developing manufacturing industry and producing goods with maximum added value. The extent to which we participate in this will determine the future of our interaction. For Indonesia, cooperating with the West in this area is problematic.

– But the West doesn’t want that; it’s interested in keeping the Indonesian and other developing economies stagnant.

– Precisely. The West would prefer Indonesians just to supply raw materials. Palm oil now is a rival to oil, mind you. Our interests, on the contrary, do not contradict Indonesia’s development in any way. We can build factories, develop energy, the nuclear sector.

– That would also require certain training, wouldn’t it?

– Yes, training personnel is of paramount importance. We’ll use our potential for cooperation.

– What do you think about Prabowo having joined the ‘Peace Council’? Although he didn’t join it for the Americans’ sake but for his own Middle East policy…

– For sure, he did this for his own sake. And his stance resides in the following: if things don’t go our way, we’ll quit. In Jakarta, they understand: those who are trying to teach them about ‘democracy’ haven’t learned it themselves – they bomb hospitals and schools. And how the Americans egged Suharto on to start a war in East Timor! Kissinger flew in specifically… Indonesia knows from its own experience: you can’t rely on Westerners.

‘When the Sunda Strait is Restless’

A portrait of Alexei Yuryevich’s grandmother, Maria Emilievna, is looking at us from the wall. Taking a look at the refined features of her face, one is tempted to ask the portrait the question Marina Tsvetaeva asked in one of her poems: ‘Young grandmother, who were you?’ I refer the question to my interlocutor. Alexei Yuryevich tells me what a shining example of the officer’s wife Maria Emilievna was, and how his grandfather, Tsarist army Staff Captain Alexei Dmitrievich Drugov, fought against the Japanese. He shows old photographs and a family heirloom – a candlestick his grandfather did not part with in the trenches during the Russo-Japanese War. Today, Alexei Yuryevich himself is bringing up his own great-grandchildren.

It is equally fascinating to have a taste of other family stories and memorabilia – here’s a souvenir with a caption ‘To Lieutenant Drugov’ from the Indonesian Minister of the Navy, Ali Sadikin; there goes a painting by an Indonesian artist that the Drugov family calls ‘When the Sunda Strait is Restless’; there lies a book inscribed by President Megawati Sukarnoputri; here’s the first book written by our interlocutor himself …

Like any serious scholar, his entire accumulated library seems likely to soon force the Drugovs out of their flat and onto the balcony. As for his own books and articles, the professor no longer counts them: firstly, he doesn’t have the time to do that; secondly, he’s a very modest man. ‘Tell them how Sukarno asked you where you had acquired such a command of Indonesian!’ laughs his faithful companion, chief ally, and appreciator of Alexei Yuryevich’s work, Natalya Vladimirovna. We now switch to another important topic: the work of an orientalist.

– Alexei Yuryevich, how would you assess the development of mutual study of Russian and Indonesian languages?

– Indonesian is a language you have to study your whole entire life, just like Russian. It’s constantly changing, growing, and evolving. (The professor shows me a worn-out, well-used dictionary – the essential companion of any self-respecting specialist working with a foreign language — into which he writes new words and phrases himself.) Thousands of Indonesians studied in the USSR. And they still come to our universities and study Russian. We have well-established Indonesian studies at MGIMO, the Institute of Asian and African Countries, and the Oriental University. I taught at the Oriental University, and I can say I’m proud of my students. They work in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Industry and Trade, in science, and in business. The education in oriental studies gives you a stereoscopic perception and understanding of the world.

– What are the main principles of the work as an orientalist that you’ve formulated for yourself? What advice would you give to future specialists?

– Can’t be put better.

– And my teacher Kesselbrenner’s motto: ‘Translation demands blood!’

– Alexei Yuryevich, my sincere gratitude to you for the interview!

In lieu of an afterword: on modesty, archives, and the crooked goat

After tea and endless bibliophilic delights, as I set off to transcribe my notes, Alexei Yuryevich, a man in his eighties, settles down to his second session (the first was at eight in the morning), scheduled inextricably on a daily basis, of working on the topics he’s currently developing – gathering and processing material. He meticulously builds his archive, maintains his card index, and handles data with precision and care.

Life experience repeatedly shows the greater the person, the more successful they are in their profession, the easier they are to talk to, the more diligent they are in their work, and the warmer and more modest their remarkable personality is when engaging with you up close. Professor Drugov belongs to that category of people. Despite his colossal experience, his wealth of life knowledge, and his academic and public achievements, there’s no need for any ‘crooked goat,’ as the Russian proverb goes, to ‘find a way in’ with him. Alexei Yuryevich is genuinely dedicated to his work, wants to be useful to his country, constantly strives for new knowledge, to get to the core essence of every issue, and gladly shares his experience with young colleagues, giving people books and very much disliking being called a legend of Russian Indonesian studies, the possessor of truly encyclopaedic knowledge and the gold standard of translation (let’s not forget – he’s not only a supremely skilled consecutive interpreter, but also a simultaneous one!). But he truly is a legend, a living piece of history, a character who embodies an era. This is what an orientalist and international affairs expert should be: modest, devoted to their work, constantly developing and honing their skills, broadening their horizons, and continuing to serve their country throughout their life.

Interviewed by Ksenia Muratshina, PhD in History, Senior Research Fellow at the Centre for Southeast Asia, Australia, and Oceania Studies, Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences

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