Even with 38 ways to buy it, Taylor Swift’s fans aren’t living for The Life of a Showgirl.

When Swift dropped her 12th studio album earlier this month, people were already primed to hate it. As part of her rollout, she released a concerning amount of products around the release. From “The Shiny Bug Vinyl Collection” to the “Showgirl Cardigan Boxed Set,” many people weren’t excited to fork over more money for an exclusive version of her album.

Then came the music.

The 12-track record got mixed reviews; it was divisive even among her biggest fans. Some critics said it was cringey, disappointing, and that her music has “never been less compelling.” Upon this reception, Swift said, “I have a lot of respect for people’s subjective opinions on art. I’m not the art police.”

Ann Powers, a music critic at NPR, says this is all part of the Taylor Swift agenda. Powers makes the case that at the height of her success, Swift is now playing a villain on purpose. We spoke with her about Swift’s showgirl mentality, hyper-personal lyrics, and why she’ll likely come out stronger on the other end of this record’s hate train.

Below is an excerpt of the conversation, edited for length and clarity. There’s much more in the full podcast, so listen to

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