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Late last month, as I watched President Joe Biden flail in his first presidential debate against Donald Trump, I kept telling people I wanted just one thing: a peek at the texts of just about any elected official to confirm were they seeing what I was seeing? So, when I called up Rep. Mike Quigley this week, I straight up asked: What was going on in your DMs that night? “I was getting a ton of texts and messages and phone calls from constituents, friends, family, staff—different waves of panic. A lot of WTF?,” he said.

Quigley is a Democrat who represents Illinois’ 5th District, which is part of Chicago and its suburbs. He’s been on the Hill for 15 years. He says the debate was sad for him to watch, like it was for a lot of people. “The worst part of this was the visual at the end of the debate, after the debacle that it was, with the first lady walking across the stage and him needing her help to get down the stairs,” he said.

But afterward, Quigley didn’t just wring his hands in private. Instead, he started showing up on cable news. At first, he simply implied he was open to a new nominee for president. After a few days, though, he got more blunt, saying, Biden simply can’t be on the top of the ticket.

I reached Quigley at a strange time. After a handful of politicians like him had gone public with their concerns, Democratic members of Congress all got in a room to privately hash things out at DNC headquarters. This was Tuesday morning. To the reporters staking this meeting out, it certainly looked like the president was consolidating his support. Congressional leader Jerry Nadler told reporters, “We have to support” Joe Biden—despite having misgivings just a few days ago. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said, “The matter is closed. … Joe Biden is our nominee.”

This vibe shift, though, did not seem to be bugging Quigley. “This is a process. Everyone follows a different path. This is unprecedented. It has, I suspect, freaked people out. But I think they’ll get there. My message is: Take whatever time you need, but we need to act, and we don’t have unlimited time,” he said.

On Wednesday’s episode of What Next, we heard from a “calm, thoughtful voice,” who thinks Biden should not be leading the ticket. A portion of our conversation, which has been condensed and edited for clarity, has been transcribed below.

Mary Harris: When was the last time you saw President Joe Biden in person?

Mike Quigley: The State of the Union.

How’d he seem at the time?

I thought he had a good night. I will just tell you that it’s hard to deny the fact that he appears somewhat frail.

Even then he seemed a little frail to you?

Oh sure, but that’s just the reality of the situation.

Him being 81?

Yeah. And I think that’s OK. I think he can function very effectively as president. I........

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