The following is a lightly edited transcript of the October 3 episode of the Daily Blast podcast. Listen to it here.

Greg Sargent: This is the Daily Blast from The New Republic, produced and presented by the DSR Network. I’m your host, Greg Sargent.

Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut has been one of the most forceful Democratic voices sounding the alarm about Donald Trump. Importantly, he’s also urged his congressional colleagues to use their power creatively to constrain Trump’s ongoing abuses of power and his destruction of our democracy. But in recent days, Trump’s consolidation of authoritarian power has if anything escalated. And we’re in the middle of a government shutdown fight in which Democrats are drawing a hard line—but not for an end to Trump’s lawbreaking. Trump has responded by issuing shockingly lawless threats toward blue America.

So why aren’t more Democrats stepping up? And is there anything Democrats can do right now, and in coming weeks, to use their power to place constraints on Trump? Today we’re talking to Senator Murphy about all of this. Senator Murphy, thank you so much for joining us.

Senator Chris Murphy: What’s up, man? Thanks for having me.

Sargent: Senator, let’s start here. The Office of Management and Budget chief Russ Vought is now corruptly canceling billions of dollars in funding for projects in a number of blue states. Trump just explicitly said on Truth Social that he’s meeting with Vought to determine which “Democrat agencies” they can cancel. I just wanted to get your immediate reaction to all that.

Senator Murphy: Yeah, I mean, it’s pretty wild that the corruption is so brazen, is so transparent. Vought sent out this tweet yesterday saying, I’m canceling energy projects in the following states, and listed the states. And every single one of them is a state represented by two Democratic senators. And the one Democratic senator who voted for the Republican continuing resolution—that senator’s state wasn’t on the list. So, you know, it’s just there for everybody to see that he is lawlessly, corruptly using the power of the White House to do what he’s been doing all year: punish his political opponents, reward his political loyalists. It is the fundamental antithesis of a functioning democracy.

And here’s what he thinks. He thinks that’s going to bully Democrats into submission, to signing onto a budget that would be bad for our people, a budget that would throw millions of people off their health care. My approach is the exact opposite. The more corrupt and lawless he gets, the stiffer my spine gets. Because at this point, if I give in and consent to these kinds of tactics, which are blatantly corrupt, then it just normalizes it all, makes it become standard fare.

So I’m not going to be bullied by what he’s doing. I hope my colleagues won’t be bullied. And I think if we stand up for our democracy, for the rule of law, for people’s health care, we’ll show people what Democrats stand for, which is kind of necessary at this moment.

Sargent: Well, you were pushing early on for an even more aggressive strategy in this shutdown battle. On NBC in mid-September, you basically set a threshold that I liked. You said Democrats should meet this, it was two things: one, meet the crisis of the moment, and two, restrain Trump’s lawlessness. So now Democrats are demanding an extension of the ACA subsidies. They’re insisting on an end to rescissions. But are they right now, with this current strategy, clearing the bar in terms of mounting the type of opposition that you said this moment requires?

Senator Murphy: Listen, I don’t think we’re asking for too much in that we are telling the president that if you want us to sign onto a budget, it can’t be a budget that funds the destruction of our democracy. I would be a sucker to agree to a budget that literally funds an operation to hunt me and my allies down—to imprison us, harass us, intimidate us.

So yes, I want there to be a number of things on the table that constrain his lawlessness. Now, am I naïve, am I Pollyannaish enough to think we’re going to write a budget that eliminates his lawlessness and his corruption? No. But I don’t think we should be shirking from a pretty simple demand, which is that if you want our votes, it can’t be for rampant lawlessness.

This isn’t a normal time. In a different era, maybe just asking for a minor adjustment in health care tax credit policy would be enough. But it’s not a normal time. If you don’t mount a stand right now on behalf of democracy, there won’t be another opportunity. This is a........

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