Did Wokeness Leave Us Worse Off?

The debate over words we can and can’t say.

By Nadja SpiegelmanBrock Colyar and Aminatou Sow

Produced by Vishakha Darbha

The right is known for using provocative language. But lately there’s been a push to be transgressive, even on the left — from the return of certain slurs to the removal of pronouns from bios. Nadja Spiegelman, a Times Opinion culture editor, is joined by the writer and culture critic Aminatou Sow and the New York magazine writer Brock Colyar to debate whether our culture is abandoning political correctness — and if so, why? Plus, stick around to hear what words Aminatou and Brock would like to ban.

Did Wokeness Leave Us Worse Off?

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The transcript has been lightly edited for length and clarity.

Nadja Spiegelman: Did woke go too far? I’ve noticed some people are saying the R-word again, and pronouns and emails no longer feel so obligatory. It feels as if we’re just being a little less careful with what we can say and who we might offend. So, where are we with language policing, and are we simply done with being politically correct?

To find out, I talked to my friends — the writer and culture critic Aminatou Sow, and the New York magazine writer Brock Colyar.

To start, I wanted to play a game where I am going to say a word and you guys are going to tell me if it is alive, dying or dead.

Aminatou Sow: Sounds great.

Brock Colyar: Let’s do it.

Spiegelman: OK: problematic.

Sow: Hmm. Should die. But it’s around. You know what I’m saying? It’s around, but it should die.

Spiegelman: Triggered.

Sow: That one’s going to come back. It’s going to come back, but it’s dead.

Colyar: I still see quite a bit of that, especially on the internet, which is really disturbing because it’s like, “trigger warning,” and then here’s a video of some horrifically violent thing.

Sow: But it’s why I love it. I’m just like, thank you for triggering me with the trigger. It’s like the reaction came 10 seconds before, so I love it.

Spiegelman: Microaggression.

Spiegelman: OK. Safe space.

Spiegelman: Folks with an “x.”

Colyar: I mean, talk about ridiculous. That really makes me so mad, because I know people who have dutifully and earnestly used that, and it’s like, oh my gosh.

Spiegelman: What about Latinx?

Colyar: I think that one’s difficult because for a lot of Latin people or Latin queer people, it feels good. And for some of them it actually doesn’t, and it can sometimes feel like a Western intervention onto them. I think that one’s complicated. I think people use it.

Spiegelman: It can live if it wants to. OK.

Sow: This is the one that will get me canceled. I hate “Latinx,” and I talk about this a lot with immigrant friends. It’s very much like a diaspora war thing for me, where I was like, it’s interesting that you need a word to signal where you are from. So I don’t like it. I would say most of the people that I know don’t like it, either. It’s just imprecise to me. I’m just like, what are we talking about here?

Spiegelman: OK, perfect. Since we’re going to talk about language, I want to start by being on the same page about the language we’re using. So, when you hear the term “politically correct,” what comes to mind for you? What does that mean for you? And is it the same thing as woke? Are we talking about the same thing?

Colyar: That’s what I was going to say. When I hear “politically correct” — I kind of hate the word “woke,” but I do think that “woke” has almost supplanted “politically correct” as the thing we’re talking about when we’re talking about this stuff.

Spiegelman: “Woke” obviously has had a lot of different transitions as a word, and who uses it and how, and to mean what. And I would say that it seemed like a positive thing to be woke five years ago. And now it doesn’t feel that way anymore. Have you noticed a shift, and where are you noticing it?

Colyar: Yeah, when I’m trying to describe my politics to people, I often say that I have some “anti-woke” sensibilities. And by saying that, I think what I’m often trying to do is distance myself from the woke of five years ago — this way too earnest, super p.c. kind of cringe, resistance-y culture, whose politics I mostly support, but the way that it’s carried out is cringe to me. Yeah, I think “cringe” is the best word.

Spiegelman: What about you, Amina?

Sow: Yeah, “cringe” is a really good word. Thank you to the young people for that one. I do think that language moves very fast. And I think that sometimes, too, when I hear people use certain words, all it does is carbon-date them for me.

So, if somebody says “p.c.,” I’m like, got it. Like, you’re a 1990 and before person. We love that last century, you know? And if you’re a different kind of person and you say “woke,” I’m like, great. You’re a new century person. But do the words mean the same things to us? And that’s not always apparent.

Spiegelman: And does it go further than time? If a white person says to you, “I’m woke,” what do you think of that?

Sow: I mean, I’m laughing. It has been ridiculous since Day 1 — I just want to be so clear about that for me — because I don’t know what they’re saying. Are you saying that I should trust you, or are you saying that you are considerate about people, which is not what “woke” has meant in the Black community, at least, where it originated from.

So, I’ve never known what that means. It’s very much like the dad from “Get Out,” you know? I’m like, OK, got it. If Barack Obama was running a third term, you’d vote for him. Cool. I don’t know what that means, you know? Also, now you have people on the right using this word “woke” to mean something completely different than what a mainstream Democrat is saying. So it is very confusing.

Spiegelman: There’s totally that, but I also feel like there is something — and it does have to do with age — but I feel like there’s something generationally that is happening, that is interesting in terms of how people think about the superficial signaling of their politics. That is changing, and it’s what I want to talk about. I wonder if you guys agree that something happened during Donald Trump’s first administration where people were like, “This is not us.” Whatever this person, this man’s values are, we need to prove that it’s not the same as the values of white progressives. And so we’re going to knit pussyhats, and white people are going to do crazy things like read books about antiracism, and they’re going to post black squares on Instagram, and it’s all going to be about ——

Sow: You’re triggering so many bad memories right now.

Spiegelman: And it’s all going to be about signaling in a very, I think at the time, well-intentioned, cri de coeur, passionate way that Trump’s values were not the same as many Americans’ values. So, how could we draw those distinctions? And then, I think during the Joe Biden administration, a lot of the things signaling that became part of institutions, like H.R.-ifying pronouns and the ways in which universities were grappling with all of this.

And I would say maybe now, because so much of the signaling has been institutionalized, there’s a rebellion against that from both sides. Do you guys see that?

Colyar: I agree with that, but I do think, like that black square moment, that still happens. We still get stuck in these virtue signaling, woke social media cycles where any issue that comes up, there’s this pressure to post. And then you post these infographics, and then all of a sudden there’s a realization two months into whatever conflict it is that those aren’t doing anything. So then we start to get mad at people who are only posting the infographics, and then it stops. And then the next time a big issue comes up, we do it all again. It just feels monotonous.

Sow: I agree with that. I remember the black square day so well, because I didn’t know what it was.

And then, one day I woke up and I was like, great, now you’ve told me exactly who I need to unfollow on this feed. This is so silly. It’s like........

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