The leader of Mexico’s Jalisco New Generation Cartel had a lot of names. His formal name was Nemesio Rubén Oseguera Cervantes. That was often shortened to simply Nemesio Oseguera. But a lot of people knew him by his nickname, El Mencho. And he was killed on Sunday in a raid.

Journalist León Krauze has followed El Mencho’s rise for years.

“All of these people that join this business, let’s call it a business, know that they are in it for a likely exhilarating, if that sort of thing excites you, but very short ride,” he says. “Only very, very few have managed to escape the long arm of the law for a long time.”

To be fair, El Mencho’s ride was longer than most. He was active for nearly two decades—which made him a kind of mythical figure, bigger than even drug lord El Chapo. In the past few days, it’s become clear just how brutal El Mencho’s organization could be: Businesses were set on fire. Members of the Mexican national guard died.

This reaction was not unexpected, Krauze says. When other cartel bosses have been captured or killed, public violence has followed, as deputies and rivals try to sort out who is running things now.

On a recent episode of What Next, host Mary Harris spoke to Krauze about El Mencho’s death, Mexico’s crackdown on cartels, and what role the United States is playing in all of this. This transcript has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Mary Harris: I want to do some table-setting for my listeners who might not have any idea what this cartel is about or who El Mencho was. How long has this cartel been a major player in the narco wars?

León Krauze: I would say it’s been growing over the last 20 years, but especially during the López Obrador administration, which was so controversial with regards to its management of the cartels.

You’re referring to Andrés Manuel López Obrador, the former president of Mexico, who talked about having this “hugs, not bullets” approach to the cartels. Did that allow something like Jalisco New Generation to flourish?

Absolutely. He was very respectful of the cartels and very respectful of the leaders, explaining that cartel members are also part of the people. It really made no sense, but more than psychoanalyzing our former president, one should look at the consequences, which are........

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