The search for an energy alternative to fossil fuels has renewed interest in nuclear power production across the globe. Despite nuclear boosters’ promotion of the energy source, Tim Judson of the Nuclear Information and Resource Service calls nuclear power an “elaborate greenwashing scheme.” Nuclear is “not carbon-free,” says Diné organizer Leona Morgan, who highlights the fuel costs and environmental contamination — particularly within and around Indigenous communities in the Southwest United States — of the uranium mining required to produce nuclear power. Because the carbon costs before and after nuclear generation are not factored into energy calculations, says Morgan, “it’s really not going to solve the energy crisis.”

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AMY GOODMAN: Overnight here at COP29, the U.S. and U.K. signed new agreements for civil nuclear collaboration and said Australia was expected to sign, but Australia’s acting prime minister confirmed today the country will not sign.

ACTING PRIME MINISTER RICHARD MARLES: I can confirm that the Australian government will not be signing that agreement. For Australia, pursuing a path of nuclear energy would represent pursuing the single most expensive electricity option on the planet. For Australia, pursuing a path of nuclear energy would be pursuing a path which would see $1,200 added to the household energy bills of each household in this country. For Australia, pursuing nuclear energy would be pursuing a path which wouldn’t see any new electricity into our grid in 20 years. For Australia, pursuing a path of nuclear energy would be pursuing a path which would only see, at best, 4% contributed to the electricity grid two decades from now.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, for more, we’re joined here in Baku at the COP29 climate summit by Tim Judson, executive director of Nuclear Information and Resource Service, part of the Don’t Nuke the Climate Coalition, and Leona Morgan, a Diné community Navajo organizer with Don’t Nuke the Planet and Haul No!

We welcome you both to Democracy Now! As you listen to this conversation, Tim, overall, we can hear everywhere here, I mean, the environmental movement is divided on nuclear power. And with this push on AI, on cryptocurrencies, I mean, you need nuclear power plants to fund a — one data center. It’s absolutely astounding. The reopening of Three Mile Island. Your thoughts?

TIM JUDSON: Yeah, well, I think the first thing you’ve got to understand about this recent wave of announcements about deals between nuclear power companies and data center companies and tech companies is that none of this involves buying power today. These are all deals to buy — to potentially buy nuclear power years down the road, you know, when some of these plants might exist.

But the reality is that the tech industry is building data centers and operating data centers today, which are consuming huge amounts of power. And that’s largely being powered, you know, by just what’s on the grid, which is largely fossil fuel energy. In fact, in some of the — a lot of the states in the country where this is happening, you’re seeing things happen like they’re extending the operation of coal plants or restarting coal plants or increasing the generation from gas plants and coal plants in order to power these data centers that are operating now.

So, you know, I think what we’re seeing is that the tech industry, especially under the Biden administration, is under some pressure to show that they’re actually being pro-climate, but they don’t want to wait to build data centers until they can build nuclear power plants. They’re doing that now. And so, it really seems more like what’s going on here is sort of an elaborate greenwashing scheme.

AMY GOODMAN: So, you can’t help but notice that you have, you know, President-elect Trump’s partner-in-chief here, Elon Musk, in charge, with Vivek Ramaswamy, of DOGE. That’s the Department of Government Efficiency. Clearly, the way that we’re going to be cutting billions out of the U.S. government budget is to deregulate, this at a time when they’re pushing to build nuclear power plants. Talk about the deregulation of nuclear power.

TIM JUDSON: Sure. Well, there’s actually been a tremendous amount of pressure over the last several years, orchestrated by the nuclear industry through Congress, to pass various bills and pieces of legislation that are already rolling back nuclear safety regulation at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. And so, the NRC over the last couple of years has actually been rewriting its regulations on how they license and permit the construction of nuclear power plants to make it, you know, streamlined, more efficient, what they say, more predictable. But this is really just keeping the public out of the process and creating a set of regulations that there’s no transparency to whatsoever.

AMY GOODMAN: Leona Morgan, I saw you the other day here in the hallways of the U.N. climate summit. You both were a part of an anti-nuclear action. I’ve also interviewed you about what’s going on in the Southwest........

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